Responses to Chronique #18 Forum Question #2 2: It has been argued that medieval romances strove to provide a better example of knightly conduct, implying that the reality of the time was less than ideal. How do you believe these stories really affected the knights themselves?The evidence lies in the tournament companies, the round table style of tournaments, and in the efforts by some Medieval princes to improve the character of their knights based on the ideals as posed in literature. --Brian R. Price aka Brion Thornbird ap Rhys It showed the knights what they should strive to be and gave them an example of what chivalry was meant to be.Its like the LORD JESUS CHRIST is an example to all Christians. --Green Knight to raise them above the common classtobetter --john enders I have problems with this thesis, as it implies a knowledge of the author's intent, and also that we have any true knowledge of reality versus the ideal. As to how these stories affected the knights? Depends. Not all of them could read. Those who could, if they did read, say something by Cretien de Troyes, Wolfram von Eschenbach, or their kin, I would think that they would be taking cues about a) how to deal with women, b) how to deal with their lord, and c) issues of the spoken word and the conflicts of loyalty that they can create. --Laura C. Minnick aka Elaine de Montgris Just like ideals of today effect people - some with indifference, some with lip service and some with devotion to the ideal even at a personal cost. No doubt Knights did daring and romantic activities just like modern day Marines. The US Marines set up an above average standard for their men. Many strive for it , some pay lip service to it and some fail to really try. I do not think that people have changed much over 600 years. --Andrew Lowry aka Richard Larmer, Esq Depended on the knight. Some strove to exemplify these ideals as they were written. Others desired to continue their less than chivalric ways, sure in the knowledge that their might gave them right of way. But I feel that the majority of medieval knights would have continued his normal pattern of behaviour despite the written words of others, not because of them. --Jeffrey Blanchard aka Sir Vladimir Ivanovich Kurgan I think the knights themselves saw them merely as books and stories. They themselves were more interested in politics and the continuation of the dynasty. The stories were perhaps more for the common people, to glorify the deeds of the 'noble' class. Occasionally a knight repented for his deeds and wrote the stories as an example for a better world, such as Sir Thomas Mallory who wrote his famour Le Mort d'Arthur in jail waiting to be excuted for his crime of rape. I personally feel that we can see the stories as an early for of fylosophy that wrote an ideal situation for a world that was imperfect, an utopia to strive for. --Riemer Postema Stories of Mentors and Heros are told so that they might inspire us all.So that we might strive for the betterment of ourselves and of our society. --Clayton Riggs Jr aka Charles Raven I believe they provided a familiar frame of reference for discussions of knightly behavior. Geoffroi de Charny compared a man-at-arms love for a lady to a knight's love for Guenever; clearly, the romance of Arthurian knighthood was common knowledge in his day. In terms of actually influencing behavior, I'm less certain. Perhaps when tourneying, such conduct was magnified, but I don't think these works had a lot of day-to-day influence. --Theron Bretz aka Etienne de Montagu I believe the Knights of yesterday share a stereotype with Navy men of today. The codes which they supposedly lived by, were to make the Knights look more gracious. In actuality, they were as men are today...MEN --Adriene Zachmann Midievil romances were a nice ideal that many Knights probbly longed for, but in reality few actually reached such midevil romances. --Chandra Hildabrand I THINK THE KNIGHTS LOOKED AND FELT AS THOUGH THE ONLY REASON TO BACOME A KNOGHT WAS FOR ROMANCE. --george bertocchi I believe that only a very few wealthy warriors ever read the stories I doubt that the vast majority had any knowledge of the bulk of the material beyond the names of the key characters. Like most mundanes in our time they probably knew of Arthur Galahad and Merlin, but had likely neve heard of Hector, Gawain, or Tristrain. There knowledge of chivcalric philosophy was probably as limited as as there knowledge of Christian Theology. If one does not know a thing they cannot be influenced by it. Of corse there are exceptions to the rule, for example Edward the Black Prince and Sir William Marshal. --Scott Adkins aka Murdock McArthur For those that could read, May be they tried to show the knights that being gentle or kind, did not unman them. --Mrs R. Niees I believe that the stories may have affected the knights more toward the latter part of the middle ages... It seems like they would have had more of an impact later on as the fuedal system was dying out and they looked for a role model. --Matthew Broadway aka Wimser the Savage I think medieval romances influenced the old knights much more than today because there were not so much other informations - especially at courts and in knightly orders where they had to swear on these ideals. The ideals were part of custom and to live up to date one had to live with these ideals. On the other hand in the Middle Ages each knight was an individuum and today each re-enactor is an individuum. Each individuum lives conformable to its own character. --Karl Ulrich Aldinger People often rise to become what is expected of them. By setting a mythical example of honour, prowess, romance, and charity, the medieval authors were inspiring the knights to exemplify these virtues. --Scott Tepe aka Aldred of Ascalon The romances were examples to inspire a knight to hold a Ladies honor above his pride so in battle the glory would be hers. It kept a knight from becoming a bully, and allowed him to his true reward was in service to others.. --Manyfingers Hostetler aka Myrddin Robin Oakarm People are people no matter what the era they live in is. And it is a simple fact that people like an entertaining story. Today's soap-operas, and sit-coms are a few steps removed from the reality of daily life so that they are fun to become involved in. No one wants to spend time paying a monthly cable-fee to see the same thing they can get for free by sitting on their front steps hoping to see the neighbors doing something new. Medieval knights and others were no different than we are when it comes to what is or is not entertainment. --Pat Bunjes aka Sophia Romantic stories of the period provided an image of chivalry for the knight to strive for, providing examples of honor, courtly love, and general chivalry. --Matthew Beaudoin aka Lothar the Wanderer I believe they deeply affected those knights whose personalities were open to their influence. In the Medieval period, or in the modern SCA, you have many knights who care deeply about ideals, and you have other knights who care more about winning, material gain, etc., and don't let the ideals get in their way when they are inconvenient. I do not believe, after reading the chronicles, that our ratio of idealists to pragmatists is any better, or any worse, than you would have experienced in the Medieval period. The period had valorous, reverent, courteous knights right alongside cowardly, blasphemous, boorish knights. Little has changed, for humanity remains the constant in the equation. --Bob Charron aka Conn MacNiell While I doubt that they all went rushing off looking for questing beasts, there is good evidence that these stories spoke to them in there less fantastic elements. There are many examples of good Knights in the real world being compared to romantic figures. This was clearly a goal for them, though obviously not the only goal. I would suggest that the romances were not written for the bettering of Knights, but that these ideals were already extant, or they would not have been very popular or enduring. The romances did serve as a constant reminder of these ideals, however, and thus served to strenghten them. --Count Sir Garick von Kopke aka Count Sir Garick von Kopke I believe that these stories gave a false image showing how the knights should die and fight for their ladies, when in reality they were immature pride protectors. --Scott Schilb Variably from individual to individual. The same way inspirational literature and stirring tales would do today. Honor, as laid out by these tales, is a hard and often thankless task. --Steven Proctor aka Morgan de Villarquemada I think that it made them feel like they had to act a certain way. That the public has an image of what a knight should be and not what a knight is. And what they, as real people are faced with in there daily lives. It is hard to have a job, where you main responsiblilty is the enforcing laws, and seeing justice carried out when those laws are not obeyed. There is nothing really romantic about slapping on armor and executing people on the battlefield. I once hear a some one say, " there is no justice in life, only mercy" It is with how much grace and dignity you do it with is what will define you as a knight, or just a soldier. It may have upset the knights to think that in some instances their actions, those proper and sometime nessesary if not pleasant of a knight would, in light of these romances, cause the public to view in a less than respectful way. I wonder how many of these writers ever tried military service. --Joe Shelton aka Calum Frazier What? Errr... maybe I am just a simple lad, but his went clean over my head! --Aj Troke I would say that the stories offered an object of comparison, and gave the knight a sense that there was more to knighthood than whatever mundane reality he felt himself ensconced in. They served as reminders that there were higher ideals, and goals to be worked towards beyond the immediate and material. --Ragnar Arneson They certainly increased the stress of the station, but at the same time, the "ideal gave the knights something to strive for other than just being the best warrior possible. --Anthony Partin aka Anton of Ffynnon Gath It gave the Knights of the time a goal to achieve. A Quest if you will. --Steven Bridges If you are referring to fiction of the times, then I believe that they were more eloquent than reality. I feel the reality of the time WAS less than ideal, even though it would be the time I would choose to live in, given the choice. --John Blankenbehler aka Piers Blackmonster Personally, I believe there was both good and bad in all knights and on any given day you could see some very unchivalris-knights...romance or not. --CANDI PALMER aka SIRE SQUIRE KEARA CRAIG OF THE ADRIA EMPIRE yes I do because it gave them "heros to look up and admire much as we look to them today --deenise Thompson aka Sapphire Jade (adrian empire) they would never have known --anthony francis dexter I think that mideval times were in fact far from romantic due to all that had been endured battles had to have been very difficult to handle knowing that many would be terribly injured and killed. I think knights and the populace at large were deeply affected by these stories simply because we all tend to want to see something as more glorius and divine than as savage --Samuel Jernigen aka Samuel De Grac'e,Squire to Viscount Sir Miles Blackheath Not much at due to the fact that they could not read or these 'romances' were oft told in higher courts like the Austrian examples handed down to us. --Joseph M. Steffes aka Lord Serjent Bran Cuileann MacMuirchu Ui Niall the stories were used to keep people in line, and to keep people honorable. the knights must have taken courtliness very seriously and with much loyalty. --Mike Carpentier I think that a few of the romances probablly had some impact on a few people. However I think that most knights were not affected by these examples. --Thomas Biliter aka Enrico di Venicia They of course had reality checks as we do now; they tempered the attitudes to a point to be sure, but an ideal is an ideal. --Dave Pavey aka Sir Dafydd MacFarlane i likea d shrimp -- I bet the stories made them feel really special and proud to be knights --Bob Frankline It gives Knights an excuse to act unkind and unchivalrous. --Heather Wells I think that these stories stirred them to duty, but did nothing to distort their concept of reality --Wendy van Schaik I would disagree with the implication as a general sweeping statement. Again the time period of the knight spanned hundreds of years, in concept if nothing more. There were times I think where the "reality of the time was less than ideal." In those times I do not think the knights who created the "less than ideal" conditions would have cared. I would think there were always and will always be those of great virtue, but there will always also be times were they are the minority. --Stephan C. Porter aka Stephan of Bellatrix I find it unlikely a Knight would actually read romances. His time would be taken up with religious observances and the like. The books would be available, but I doubt they would read them. The reality would be less than ideal, but isn't it always. The challenge was (and still is) to get as close to perfect as possible. Perfection is gods domain, and the humans it is to get as close as possible. But a realisation that perfection is impossible is as important as anything else. --Richard Lawrence They probably didn't affect them --Wendy Samulski aka Baroness Rosemund von Glinde I believe it varied from knight to knight. Some would have heard these stories and strived to become better, others wouldn't have cared. I would like to think that, on the whole, knights would have tried to elevate themselves --Josh Stender I believe the medeival knight used the romances as a way to feel good about himself and his class, as he often behaved quite to the contrary. (Much in the same way as the clergy of the time used their high ideals to justify their baser deeds.) The romances gave the knights a fine image forthemselves and the populace to believe in, while in reality, the knight rarely allowed these lofty ideals to get in the way of their profit, pleasure or personal advancement. --Jeff Perry aka Derrick of Kent Period texts provided a reflective process for thier own lives. As they heard these stories about themselves they realised that this was how people expected them to behave, and tried to live up to that standard --Ray Simonsen aka Phillipe du Lac Bleu We have adequate to my mind proof that medieval romance was a vast civilizing influence on the brutal fighters who eventually became knights. Fighting became not enough and the appreciation of women and high ideals took hold. Eleanor of Aquitaine brought the romance of Chivalry with her into England. It changed knightly behavior. Knights became more than just warriors; they strove to become paragons of the virtues taught in morality stories of Arthur and his Knights. Minstrals and joungleurs brought further tales of daring and service. By the time of the 15th century, Castiglione was capturing courtier behavior in written form. Women were respected and revered. True gentlemen were still ferocious warriors but now skilled in courtly graces. --J. Ellsworth Weaver aka Sir Balthazar of Endor, Dwarf Lord Knighthood was undoubtedly associated with prestige. In the youth (many recieving knighthood in their 20's) prestige will often equate to pride. Pride typically replaces charity and thus compromises the ideals of chivalry. --Steve E. Pehrson MD, KTJ I would suggest that human behavior has changed very little in the passing centuries. There are those who embrace the ideals (or attempt to embrace some of the ideals) that are presented to them and those who the ideals mean very little. We can see this in the accounts of history of the past and on some list fields to this very day. --John Patrick Kowal aka THL Aleksandr Vasilevych Lev The stories themselves may have been a lesson to the knights in morality. Stories, no matter what the time, has always included more information than was actually there, and was provided as entertainment. Not for fact. --Chuck Smith I think that it brings a false image to the times --David M. Scott In the case of the French knights who let the romances stir their blood to epic proportions ...so to speak.... Well at least to the point where to show thier courage and thier strenght would single handedly charge at entire armies of the English ...let me think 1,000 to 1. These odds don't sound to good to me. But, perhaps if I were a French knight and wanted people to wright stories about me as they did about Charlemain I might venture somewhat of lopsided charge. --Bob Bock aka Tatheg OBrian Medieval romance certainly tried to show ideal knights, and just a certainly the reality of the medieval knight fell short of that ideal. Compare William Marshall and Lancelot, and you see that difference. Knights and their Ladies were the audience for the romances, and what was presented was what they wanted to hear. I believe that the Knights presented in the romances did become a goal for medieval knights, but I believe the knights understood that the knights of romance did not live in the real. I believe that the romances did have a civilizing effect on the medieval knights, and trying to be like the knights of romance is the main cause of the rise of the Pas d'Armes with its elaborate story and pageantry. --Rollie W. Reid aka Conor mac Cinneide Humans being what they are, a little stretch of the reality surely helped provide that extra "something" to get the fair sex's notice. --Kenneth Pfaff I don't think this affected the knights until, combat tatics changed the role of knights in battle. Then looking back like Homer did in the Odyssey at a golden age, they created a Golden Age of Knighthood. --Jonathan Shevis aka Sabrael ibn al-Faris I feel that knights behavior were probably not too different in battle than what our armies use today. There are good and bad people. We use movies to provide this "good" example of war and conduct today, but realities of war still exist. The affects of these stories probably helped to remind the good at heart of some ideals, but, as they say, "All's fair in love and war". War is survival of the fittest (how many more phrases can I use!). Battle is always less than ideal. I am reminded of the battle of Bull Run, where spectators came out to watch, and were horrified at the violence. Writers want to idealize the world in words, but war is a reality that cannot be escaped. Knights I believe acted to survive. Ideal? Probably not, but survive they did. --Gregory Bradford Much like today we go to tourney and come back with inspiration to strive to be better than what we are, the more we are confronted with the Ideal the more we become it. I dont think Knights in the middle ages strayed much from the same situation . --Samuel Jernigen aka Samuel De Grac'e It think we idealize much more today than back then. There is nothing wrong with idealization and few will reach that standard. It is the striving for that ideal that matters. --Kris Krajewski It gave them an ideal: something to strive towards.I am sure that many did not live up to it, but at least they had the ideals.Without them, it could be rather savage and meaningless. --Sophie Masson All ideals, and the striving for them, both personally and as movements or group efforts, in any situation or period of history, fall short of ideals, and human reality is less than ideal, but this is no reason not to set a high standard and attempt to acheive it, and i am sure the knights became caught up in the high and holy virtues the stories presented, some with unrealistic expections, some with imperfect but pure and humble intent and some with far from christian intent , but this is no different than any other noble cause men strive for.It has given me pride in the honest attempt to hold to high --susan pearl lent All ideals, and the striving for them, both personally and as movements or group efforts, in any situation or period of history, fall short of ideals, and human reality is less than ideal, but this is no reason not to set a high standard and attempt to acheive it, and i am sure the knights became caught up in the high and holy virtues the stories presented, some with unrealistic expections, some with imperfect but pure and humble intent and some with far from christian intent , but this is no different than any other noble cause men strive for.It has given me pride in the honest attempt to hold to high --susan pearl lent Within our current society there are horrendous wars over almost anything. Even with such death, the idea of heroism prompts new young men and women to join their armed forces and serve perhaps to the death. --chris glover aka verminaard the dragonslayer I'm sure that they affected some knights to a degree. Professional warriors don't always have time to be concerned with the civilian perception of them. --Wm. H. MacKenzie aka Cumhail Ironsteed Surely a cultural fact as pervasive (within the relevant class) as the romantic tradition must have had an effect on behavior as pronounced as television is claimed to have on our own era. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that sufficient "data" exists to run statistical studies on tohis issue comparable to those being conducted on contemporary society. --Tani Wolff I think that knights began to behave in the manner idealized by the troubadours because it came to be expected of them by courtiers and commoners alike. And this, in many ways, was a good thing. Honor and courtesy are watchwords in my life and in the lives of those around me. --Sharon E. Everett aka Fiona de Bousis I think that knights began to behave in the manner idealized by the troubadours because it came to be expected of them by courtiers and commoners alike. And this, in many ways, was a good thing. Honor and courtesy are watchwords in my life and in the lives of those around me. --Sharon E. Everett aka Fiona de Bousis I believe that the stories provided an inspiration to many medieval knights just as they can still inspire us today. Knighthood itself is in many ways a quest for an ideal which can never be obtained. The stories gave examples both of the ideal knight and of the very real failures along the path. --Richard A. Edwards aka Sir Richard Fitzalan The reality of the time was truly less than ideal yet i believe that the attiudes of the knights is in part what truly brought out the spirit of the renaissance to the period of the Crusades. --J.Lofgren I believe the medieval romances strove to teach in many of the same ways that certain verses from the bible tought to demostrate 'good' behaiviour. Through the example of these stories Knights were inspired to raise their levels of behaiviour above those of the normal citizenry of the time and in so doing, inspire those same person to emulate him. --Simon Miller aka Lord Simon MacFaolain I beleive that the knights themselves were provably not effected one way or the other. although if it came to light in a negative way " his honour of course" it would have to be defended. Being of the upper class the stories I believe were rearly spoken around the class's themselves. --Davida Solomon I believe they served to spur the knights to show that they were indeed, the "champion" in the hearts of their consort. Perhaps even to the extent of putting forth a better effort than normal. Whether or not it was reality or ideal, I believe that an individual will strive to show that they are worthy of accolades. --Dale C. Tokvam aka Adrian Empire-Kazimirovich Vojdka al Feyd Hmmm, it probably varied from knight to knight. I'm sure there were knights who got depressesd, frustrated or stressed because they couldn't live up to the ideals, and gave up knighting, or killed themselves trying. Others were probably spurred on by the tales, considering the tales an incentive to become better knights. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if there were "knights" who tried to kill everyone who implied that knights weren't perfect. (there's always one) --Eva Rafaella Mowinckel Fallet i believe that they gave the knights a higher ideal to follow --james r. dougherty i believe that they gave the knights a higher ideal to follow --james r. dougherty i believe that they gave the knights a higher ideal to follow --james r. dougherty It was the pinnacle of knighthood, what they stove to bevome --William Paul aka Guilliame De'Sable The stories may have made the knights want to fight for honor or their ladies honor so that they could possibly win the lady over. --Jennifer Heberling I believe that it is possible that romances could have been a better example of knightly conduct because how women were to be treated. --Michele Chiodo aka N/A Well, on the one hand I believe that some knights did truely strive to uphold the ideals of courtly love and romance. But then again as in everthing there probably was a small minority that had now clue if it was the romantic age or the stone age --Ethan R. Like It makes the knights strive to mantian that heric behavior. --Andrea Nash I believe that most knights during and before the time of the medieval romance, were nothing but bullies and tyrants above peasants and commoners alike. As human beings, we always strive for goodness and poets and writers will always write of good deeds and honourable acts. --Kurt F. Quante it made their egos to big --Dre Edwards Mallory wrote "Le Morte dArthur" while he was in prison. He was basically a scoundrel. Some knigts, such as Ulrich von Liechenstein or Bayard tried to emulate the ideals put forth in the romances, but put their life on the line and most of them will choose life over the ideal. --Michael A. Cramer aka Valgard Stonecleaver I believe they affected those who listened in exactly the same way Hollywood or the Best Sellers List affects us today; when a book is read or a movie watched, we IDENTIFY with the characters. In however small of a way, we act like them. We repeat their famous lines, we imitate their gestures, we copy their attitudes. IMHO, this is how the idea of chivalry remained so strong for so long, and yet, found itself changing so often throughout the Middle Ages. --Chris Henson Hmm... I think it affected the average knight about as much as Christ's admonition to "turn the other cheek" affects the average Christian... in other words, they may have thought about it occasionally, but it didn't change their daily behavior. --Megan McSparren-Griffith aka Margarethe Fitzgeorge, AOA Indeed they do! It is the duty of everyone who enters the list field to do their upmost to enhance the gallery’s viewing pleasure. --Richard Collicott aka Edouard Beausoleil ZA --ZA aka ZA I believe that the knoghts payed little attention to these stories because their main concern was with the people who needed help. True knights payed little attention to what people thought or said, their purpose in life was to help the poor and needy. -- well if you ask on the knights of the society I believe that sca knights and master gained thier rank for portraying the best attributes of knighthood and the very essence of chivalry it is what drives us all to knighthood the medieval romance of knighthood may cover some of the indiscresions of war and power but it is the ideas we live to encourage --Ortega D. Hobson aka Lord Ustad "the Dredded" Hasan The knights themselves saw how this was, and put themselves above it. --Coretta Savas Nahh --Patrick Howard ?????? ummmm??? ask me later. --Chris aka -OLR not SCA Likely, they influenced the way the knights acted heavily, as they(the knights) wanted to appear as ideal as possible. --Jon Jenkins It would make them think about their own behavior, and perhaps change if they felt strongly --Jim Bathurst I feel it effected them as much as those same ideas effect Scadians today we both are trying to live a set Ideal but we also Know that it doesnt always happen that way. --Samuel Lee Jernigen aka Samuel De Gracé df --fga aka dfs Considering that many of these romances were composed to be heard in court, and that many were composed at the request of such worthies as Eleanor of Aquitane, I'd say they had about as much effect as modern print media does. It gave at least some of them a cause to pause and consider their actions against a higher standard. In much the same way as many companies are becoming green pro-active today (although that's a loose analogy only). --Andrew Leitch aka Andre de Montsegur I would compare them to modern adventure films and books as viewed by modern soldiers. Some are motivated to emulate what they see, some are openly derisive towards them. Very few in my experience are middle of the road. --Steve Heeter aka Lord Stephen of Caerleon They were genre fiction -- they were probably used as roadmaps to conduct for knights to about the same degree that detective novels are used by modern police forces. --Mark Bertrand yes, they should, it maks a better show if they appear to be good fighters --Sandie Deyo Society, as an ever evolving entity, has a tendancy to express events relative to the flavor of the time. It then falls upon the individual or group to keep its foundation strong. Within lies the knowledge, without lies the challenge. Whether you are Christian, a Martial Artist, a Marine, or a Knight, your perserverance is soley dependent upon the strenght and validity of your heart, not the, good or bad, raving of society. --Mark Ambrozic They certainly provided a common cultural background, just as we use catch phrases from movies and elsewhere to instantly "catch up" those around us as to what "style" we are about to engage in. If you quote Darth Vader, you're taking on one persona, if you quote Han Solo it's a different "feel". I'm sure that just as various generals have suddenly seen Classical-era tactical situations appear in their own battles, medieval knights would have recognized moments from romances in their own lives, and probably responded based at least in part on how the character in the romance acted (oh-oh, I don't want to be like Ganelon, or, yes, I should behave at least as well as Erec in the same moment). After all, stories from the Bible were (and are) taught for precisely that purpose. --Ross C. Quinn-Davis aka Caradoc Llew Du ap Morgan Like all people of all times only the very best can cast off avarice, greed and self-serving. The Chivalric romances would be like a beacon to aim at for the best and something to ridicule for the rest. There is no doubt in my mind that the romances emancipated the noble woman and encouraged the movement from a epic hero to a noble gentleman. --Chris Colyer aka Sir Kane Greymane Perhaps they believed in the ideals so strongly that they ignored what was really happening around them. I have ignored the YEAR LONG lack of response to me queries because I believed that it must be merely a mistake. --Robin Reed aka Siglinde von Hartberg Certainly. Thoughout history, not just the limited time and audience of medieval romances, stories of moral and upright conduct have influenced the behavior of others. In modern America we all learn (or at least did) the myth of George Washington and the cherry tree. If we are not told that story to influence us away from lying, why are we told it. Certainly lying still exsists, but the weight of such stories help inculcate in most people the idea that lying is bad. The result is that each of us, to differing degrees, internalize this idea and avoid lying most, if not all of the time. To my mind, the question isn't "if they believed this why were they so brutal?", but "How much more brutal would the age have been without these ideals?" --Herbert Nowell aka Osric Palmer of York Don't know --Michael J. Allen aka How does one join and get a name I believe that the stories had little effect on the behavior of the majority of the knights. Sure, some of them may have shaped up when they took time to read the romances, but I'd bet that a lot of knights were too busy hacking other men apart in tourneys to worry a lot about their conduct. --Morgan aka Gwyneth Raven These stories may have done a few things to the knights. The knights may have tried harder to uphold the ideals of chivalry, as they are presented in the stories. Acieving the near perfection of virtue presented in the stories would be nigh impossible, however. Second, I also think that the stories tended to inflate the knights' egos. If you are presented as much better than you are, and it is believed, then it would be very tempting to let everyone think that you are more perfect than they. --Jamie McLaughlin I may be on the forward and a little presumptious but lets face the truth and be done with it the code got stretched more than alittle but the knights would adhere to it in the faces of thier peers and the lords they served to get the power they needed as for the romance part think about it and the idea of practicing chastitywhile living in atime where if you had the power you had any or as much romance as you could afford --james Like most people throughout history, the Knights probabally enjoyed hearing about adventurous deeds and may even have promoted these stories by sending troubadors ahead to tell tales of brave feats and courage-- making these madrigals truly the first advance PR men! In public, the Knights believed in all the romance-- in private none. In our 20th Century thinking it is not very chivalrous to "recruit" ignorant peasants for the Crusades knowning that just to move a serf a few miles from his village could cause him to be lost forever there being no reading or road signs available for the unlucky bloke. Promotion of self worked wonders in the 12th century as it did in the 20th. --James E. Knapp I believe that the stories affected many knights in a positive mannor. Hopefully a majority of the knights believed that the public should not be disillusioned, hence they attempted a bit harder to uphold their codes. --Lisa Nesler It certainly influenced the most literate of the chivalry, as evidenced in the writings of Froissart, and Charny (and many others with whom I am less familiar). Undoubtedly, many men imersed in a real and brutal world did not live up to the inhuman standards of the noblest legendary knights, but in striving to be more than just a well to do thug, as the romantic heroes modeled, the station of the knight was ennobled. --Zachary Most aka Gaston de Clermont I think that it is true that life was harsh these stories affected the knights because romances could be very saddening to the knight if his lady would do something against the knight --Remi Stebenne The knights of the time were pictured as men who, for the most part, did the right things. In reality they were mostly brigands who deserved death for what they did. --Todd Rockwell I think that many of them did strive toward these goals, but there are always those few who will scoff. There were probably many others who did reach the ideal, and who might have been examples for others. --Nicole Matson aka Coberly the Grey Can't really say without sufficeint study. --John Clements It gave the knights big heads.....they thought they were above everyone else and treated all as lowly scum....thats in my opinion. --Jason Tomecheck If they read these at all, they would probably have realised that the romances were an ideal - a thing to be striven for, but difficult to achieve in practise. "To err is human..." -- Ms. Jocelyn Davis made them concited --Slim Shady Did they still use heavy armor after chain mail was invented? --Jake Armstrong to me they have no meaning --jessica smith While it assuredly affected lifes of some, and made them strive toward higher ideals, there were bound to be those who wrote it of as unrealistic babble. --Yury J. Kotlov I would imagine that those knights were no more immune to such tales than we ourselves. --Wm. H. MacKenzie aka Cumhail Ironsteed Hard to say. Surely there were some who were greatly influenced by these ideals (like today) and it is not unreasonable to assume that some folks who were unaffected by the stories. Also methinks that there were sundry people of middling affectation. --Eric Erb aka Lord Erec L'Claire The knights loved women but constantly tired of the relationship after some time. --Joe Windeknecht Everyone would like to be compared with the romantic ideal....however, I believe that most knights had far too many real-world concerns to worry about how they would compare to these figures. In such romances, political and financial concerns are not particularly stressed as the motivating factors they probably were. --Robin Pyle aka Baroness Ciaran It could possibly have dishearted them, because it was an ideal they were supposed to live up to but couldn't due to certain social circumstances. --Thaylin D. Burns In thought they gave the knight an ideal or goal. In reality there was everyday life and pressures to succum to. Some of the ideal was carried through into day to day life, at least when convienient. --Fred Clark The reality was less than ideal. That's not to say the knights of the era did not try to meet the romantic, and those stories that were recited would remind them of that which has been entrusted to them. --Michael Kleinpaste aka Lord Cailaen Liam MacLeod It may have made some of the real life knights try to live up to it,but I feel that the majority just had their pride boosted with no results 'Look at me,I'm a romantic Knight!' --Carlton Talley Most knights "or at least some" probably strove to be like their mythical idols and romantic heroes. Unfortunately this might also have made some knights foolish and easy prey to warriors who did not hold the same moral standards. --Yosh Shelton In the same way J Wayne and his ilk were to us. An example to follow that keeps you always moveing torwards, an imposible destination, that was the ultimate goal --Jason R Brown aka Janik Kubak -- The stories only affect the knights during the tournaments. Basically making play nice during the event. On monday it back to work worrying about land, grain, robbers, etc. --Roger Martin aka Jasper Murtagh As is true in all matters,there are to sides,two peoples,two knights. One who looked at the romance as a way to complete his inner quest.To be loved and respected.One could also look upon the romance as a cancer that eats away at that same respect that was in some minds attributed to prowess on the field.So yes, it did effect the knights but they were travelling down seperate paths to begin with. --Stephen Choquette Where did it orginate? --Jason I think it affected them in some ways. The whole notion of combatting for a lady's honor, for example. As children grew up with stories of knights slaying dragons to save the fair maiden in distress, they were sometimes inspired to persue this for themselves. I think it may have also raised the knightly standards a bit - especially in court. They would have been expected to act in a certain manner, dress in certain ways, etc., befittind of a noble knight. --Allen Enloe I believe very little in reality. Most of the authors were poets not knights. Some nice words and kind actions may have impressed the ladies at court, but that does not conceal the ruthlessness and barbarity of behavior chronicled by contemporary writers. Remember also, such writings stressed the ideal. --maureen cox-gallup aka muirenn ingen ui ceilleachair Only to the point of making polite constructive coments. --Rob Jarvis Much as any romantic or idealized story today affects us. There are those such ideals will never sway and those who try their best to be those ideals. Real knightly conduct probably lies somewhere in between. I believe the romanticized stories did impact the knights in the very least in their outward conduct towads each other and their betters, if nothing else. --Lenny Zimmermann aka M. Lionardo Acquistapace Medieval romances provided a incubator for the development on mannors and courtesy. The more popular ones keep repeating paticular theams, because these theams strick a cord with the reader. --Laurie Brandt aka Pegasus Devona I think they are gay --Matt DUnn SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO ROMANTICIES OUR LIVES ,OR WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SURIVE THEM.WHY SHOULD THEY BE ANY DIFFRENT THEN US. --ALEXANDRIA SMIRNES aka MERWYN OR THE RUIN peace in my hood --Megan Williams they might have encourged the knights to strive for those ideals, unless they knighte were really scroundrels themselves. --Joseph Gibbs aka Lord Joseph Grunwald of york Although the hand of a lady may have been a reward for winning a Tourny I doubt that that hand was the sole reason for a participants entry. I view the hand of the Lady merely as a Prize for surviving the combat and winning. --Christopher Velez I think they felt they truly strived for these romantic ideals. However, I also think that they did not feel obligated to express the Chivalrous virtues to those who were not of their class, faith, race, or even in some cases, nationality. I think they strove for the romantic ideal, but more often succumbed to their own ignorance. --Thomas Clayton aka Sir Ronan of Hereford I believe that the stories provided a goal or ideal that they could strive to attain. I think that they realized their humanity, knowing that the authors needed to have a hero more than human; thus being satisfied in the attempt to live up to their fictional counter-parts. --Frank Mills aka Malcolm McFarlane Indeed he does. We are all a part of the same hole team out there. Therefore the looks of a fellow combatant always shines back on you. And of course it works the other way around too. Do not demand less (or more) from other people, than you demand from yourself... -- 2. I believe that knights grew up hearing Bards and Storytellers relate stories about King Arthur’s Court, Roland, Charlemagne, and others. And even as today each knight had their own perception of what their heroes actions meant to them. We have many examples of kings and their knights being less than romantically chivalrous. One example is the War of the Roses in England. Another example is the reign of Edward I in England. I think the writers of the time wrote to provide hope during dark troubles. Whether this was done at the request of a lady of the period, or starry-eyed dreamers is not the point. The point is the need was there. Some knights took the stories to heart and strove to achieve the ideals to some degree, or there would be no basis for the stories in the first place. I think that some knights strove to emulate their heroes as best they could. But like most people they had faults as well as virtues. One knight might have incredible prowess in the lists, but be a complete bore with the ladies of the court. Another knight might be loyal to a fault, but only an average combatant. I believe that each knight did what they were compelled to do, even if that meant dying for what they believed in. Unfortunately history is written by the victors, and most of the time the medieval victors were the most ruthless ones on the field of battle and politic. --Matthew Bowerman aka Arturus I believe that the ideals in the romances were at least based on the Knights themselves. I believe that they were simply imbellished in order to make a more interresting story. --Jacob Gambill aka Lukas Fontevrault (not yet registered) dont know --jamie peter cole Similar to romance novels of today, men are portrayed as fantastic lover, blah blah blah. Even in movies, men and women and love situations are often depicted as "better than it really is." I think it sets a standard to which we all may try to aspire, but perhaps the perfection we read or watch makes us critical of ourselves as perhaps the knights would have been at the time. I think the knights would see how they were being portrayed and try to fill the role of contact that was their stereotype. --Amanda Reidy more info on kighthood --Kayla m. McMullen Of course, being fictional representations of reality, stories weren't taken as seriously by the knights as today's newspaper accounts. However, they did present a value to be lived up to. And in that sense, a standard by which to measure his actions gave the society of knighthood a sense of security. --Sister Clare Schmidt I doubt that most knights cared much, as they were illiterate fortune seekers. However, there were a few whom I believe took great inspiration from such tales (i.e. Sir William Marshall) and left us with the legacy we have today. --Mikal C Johnson (KtE Cym SOCAE) perception --Ron Ryan In the SCA? Certainly. A combatant owes the populace a goodly attempt at period appearance and owes the object of their inspiration even more than an attempt. --William MacKenzie aka Cumhail Ironsteed As with most literature and entertainments of the period the romances provided the ideal and Archtypical. Reality was not as nearly perfect, thus the divine comedy and other allegorical works to instruct and emphasize the virtues. --Richard L. Allison aka Seanne Alansyn They gave them an example to follow. --Gavin S Anderson (KtHon SOCAE) They were soldiers; trading their services for land, and using their skills to earn a living; I don't know that they cared about the "romantic" aspect of knighthood. -- aka Godric the Gallant Most of the examples of what is accepted as ideal today came from the romantic period. So the affection of the knights of that time really has no reflection that we can gauge. As I said before, what they did in their time and place was believed as honorable there and not here and now. The lords of the lands wanted their knights to be both feared and respected so they are the instigators of the behavior being accepted as honorable and a measure of how others should behave if they want respect and other goodies. --Franchesca Havas aka Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio I think they probably had the same effect on the knights of the day that modern stories have on us. Some people take the ideal and strive for it and others ignore it completely. --Dan Fenwick aka Daniel deBlare I don't believe that these stories had much effect because when someone is coming to kill you for real you fought for real. --Jeff Shultz aka Ld Geoffrey de la Montagne No comment as the question is not fully understood. --Lynn Ward aka Diredre inghan Cellach I think the knights most probably enjoyed the fact that they were thought of as indestructable heros. --Paula Quinn This is very difficult. Being so far removed in time and in emotions it is difficult to know how this happened. However, the knightly ideal was, I think, exemplified in these stories. Even if they were unatainable, the ideal was what mattered. --Brad Golding The Knites did the romantic, but every bodys view of the Knites is climbing laders and save- ind damzels in distress. Yes the helped those in need but they did have a tough life and plenty of discomfert. --reid Historical evidence proves this, at least in part. Knights took the Cross, some for profit, some for glory; but some actually appreciated St Bernard's "De laude novae militiae." This is just one example which springs to mind. It is my contention that the balance between "real life" and the "chevalier parfait" was a fine one indeed, [emphasis] much like we experience today in the SCA. --Robert Davis aka Robert fitz Thomas I am sure that the ideals were much higher than what actually took place in time of war. It was obviously no different than today. Our society has rules of war and engagement written out in pacts such as the Geneva Convention; however, it never fails that soldiers and there leaders depart from these somewhat chivalric ideals at any time that it better suits them or the objective of their campaign. War was never meant to be brotherly. Chivalry was meant to make a caste of the knight/soldier as a contrast of the common man. These rules were no doubt enforced in tournament where the common man could witness the knight in action and hold him in reverance, but when war broke out it was the victor who could argue how well they played by the rules. --Lonnie Colson they may have inspired, but like military novels today..those in the military may scoff them as romantic and unreal...yet, they may set a new mindset..as they do with medieval recreationists --Charles Spratley aka Paulo de Barbiani of Ferrara ONE QUESTION CAN YOU SEND ME INFORMATION ABOUT BLACK KNIGHT ? STORY AND REALLY --Alireza aka - Middle age Knights behaved according to an ideal rooted in Dark Ages romantic. The less ideal the period was, the more Knights seeked to follow these romantic ideals. --DESOMBRE Medieval romances were the paparazzi of their day. I am sure many knights found treating writers well had its benefits. Having said that, I am sure some knights must have tried to emulate these storybook figures. --Derek Tomes aka Inigo Missaglia I believe that the knights had thier heros and examples to live up to as we do. The knights would strive to live up to thier idaels but, as we do, fall short on occasion --Leonard G. Anderson II aka Andrais This is a poorly worded question. To what "stories" do you refer? I don't care if you send me the magazine, just change this question. --J.J. Harder As a person I can say how the stories affect me and I can only imagine that it affected a knight of the middle ages in a similar way. The ideals and stories enoble the soul. They give a standard that all need to live by. If I was a knight of that time I could only think I would be flattered at the thought of even being close to the same level as knights and lords of the stories. --Benjamin Green aka Dont have one...yet I feel these stories gave the knights of this time an example to try to obtain. could one be as ideal as a knight of Arthurian legends? it is a code to try to live by --Russell Millward aka Edmund du Portte Only to their current fealties, knight, lady, king. This is supposed to be a party, not a game where the man who can afford the best gets to go first. --Jay Palmer aka Sir Valtorr of Oslo (AnTir) I think the stories at times were used as a ribbing to the knights who were not "honorable". I think that it helped the renown of those who were honorable and put a spotlite on those who were not. --Jason Davis aka Guillaume De Lacy ummm, i really dont understand the question, but for ur sake i will say sure y not? --Kara In two ways. first to inspire them to a higher ideal. Secondly discouraged them because they found they could never live up to the prefect ideal --david demonja aka Lord Aidan MacAlpin As with most of us, being confronted by an ideal leads to at least two distinct responses: determination to achieve it, or a sense of the futility of trying to fulfill what is, after all, an abstract ideal. --Nancy Rapp They probably thought they were good stories. Some listened if it applied to them. --Lara Dixon i believe thst it affected them greatly they were distracted by love making them bad Knights and extremely tired. --mia smart Many strove to be men of power and renown. The stories tried to sofen the ruff edges of the young Knights and make them better behaved in court. --Michael Gardner a.ka.Sir William DeGardiner , Of The Adrianempire I don't believe they had much of any significant affect, since the knights already had their beliefs and virtues and the romance merely gave them an outlet for their them --Eric Anderson The medieval romances affected the knights in no way because they kept acting in a less than ideal manor throughout the medieval period. --Richard Whittington Like our morality, we have good exmples every one knows, but few follow. Still, these give us a mark to shoot for higher than our own. --Robert Lightfoot aka Ld. Ernst von Nurnenberg I feel that many (not all) knights would have liked to have been able to live up to the "standards" set for them in "romances"; and I believe that many TRIED to live up to these examples. --Douglas Shannon aka Douglas the Indecisive I believ that the knghts were like professional athletes, the studs of their time, and that some were cocky, and some were very polite. --Scott Marcum What are some rules that knights obey under chivalry? --anna moore aka none In all probablility, those knights were as unaffected by such myths as Americans are by the myth that any can become President. The reality is so far away from the myth that no connection can be made. A few romantics may be positively affected by such tales, but most would have been far more affeceted by the harsh reality of their position in a feudal society. Training and skill at arms are a little more essential when your life depends on it. As with many things in life, the ideal provides a store of rhetoric to be dragged out when needed, and ignored at all other times. --Peter Ryan aka Master Gwynfor Lwyd OP, OLM, AA, PsC, ost, bc Perhaps creating a mirror to look at the truth and how we may impact upon it in our own way, like todays media --Michael Drain aka Sir Thorgeirr Bollasson To what extent was William Marshal the personification of chivalry? --philippa Garden what?. --Marija Damjanovska aka marija I agree with Chaucer on this point. I believe its easier for a youth beginning his (or her quest) to want to immulate the higher ideals of chivlary than those who are older. However, it must be noted that even in period romances, knights did not always behave in accordance with the ideals we currently ascribe to chivalry. --Donald Johnson aka Sir Donato el Lobo Stories of course proably played a part just as they do in our modern times. They enlighten us and get us to think maybe this way is better and we change. --Joanna Perry It's so difficult for me. --Evgenij Shtilj aka E.P.S. The ideal, or the untimate goal, should always be beyond, or at least virtually beyond, reach. Otherwise, where does one go and what does one do once they have reached the peak. Knightly conduct is not like math, where one answer is completely correct and all other answers are wrong. Knightly conduct, as I see it, is more like literature. A story can be written many ways, and all of them may be good, but none of them are so good that one could say for certain there is no room for improvement. As for how it affected the knights, I can imagine overall only a positive result, albeit riddled with times of frustration. Any goal worth striving for is worth missing and striving for again. --Lee Gunter aka Lionel MacLaren of Oldenfeld I believe it helped to reform the society to live up to the ideals set forth in the romances. --Peter Cauchy I think that things then were much like now, in that some who heard or read the tales were profoundly inspired, but probably only because they were already at the upper end of the scale so far as knightly behavior and personal honor go (much like the SCA members who best exemplify the ideal are the guys who, in 'real life' strive to be honorable men.) --Kim Phillips aka Drahomira, the mapmaker's daughter The reality of any time is less than ideal, because humans are imperfect beings. To paraphrase Sir Phillip Sidney, our intellect enables us to conceive of perfection, but our corrupted will prevents us from attaining it. In almost any period in history there was a tendency to view the past through rose-colored glasses. Now, the fact that ideals are unattainable does not detract from their worth. In striving towards an exalted ideal, one will very likely reach a greater height than one not so inspired. All of which leads to my belief that if a knight read or (more likely) heard one of these tales, and had any aspiration to chivalry, it might well have inspired him to move a step or two closer to the ideal. Or it may have revived his flagging spirit, given him encouragement to carry on in his journey toward the ideal. Any progress, however slight, toward the ideal is commendable, and anything that inspires such progress is worthy. --Jeb Raitt aka Donal Mac Ruiseart, Founding Baron Marinus in Atlantia "Reading made Don Qixote a gentleman. Beleiving what he read made him mad." - G.B. Shaw --Patrick Owens Some knights were I am sure truly noble in their heart by their very nature. Others no doubt were mean-spirited to their core. But there were almost certainly many in between, and for these who needed to strive toward chivalric ideas, succeeded in varying degrees. Some meant well but couold not truly understand the concepts, others grasped the letter of the law but not the intent, while others overcame what baseness they had. --Eric Erb aka Lord Erec L'Claire I believe that the chivalry of the time were not affected by the stories. It is the same with the royalty, they were exalted and praised as being above the common man, because of the station they attained. --Michael Sklower aka Owynn MacKinnon Yes they do, especialy if they hold a ladies favour on them, they should always look presentable and well groomed. So their lady will not be embarrassed and then she might feel ashamed of her own honour. --Todd M. Clayton Jr aka Crom of the Grail I believe that these stories or ideals made the "club" of knights closer to themselves. In public they probably tried to live up to the heroes and the public image but alone they realized thier faults and only alone could they be themselves. I suppose they could be compared to the movie stars and professional sportsmen of today. The public sees them as bigger than life but they aren't --John Courter People as a general rule have always been the same. In every culture, to a varying degree, their is a concept of honor. In the modern world, and the medieval one, the reality of life is less than perfect. As we strive within the context of a tounament society to show a chivalrous attitude, so do I believe did the knights themselves. The stories gave the knights a higher level of excellace to strive for, and made the fall from grace that much more humiliating and avoidable. --Jeff Closs i think that the romances gave the knights a wanting to model their lives for the sake of honor. virtue is a noble attribute,invoking it gives them a sense of purpose, to be an example. --David Petro some tired to change others didn't --Anthony Stock I believe they prety much ignored them --SANDYE ASKIN dont believe they provided a better example and in some way shuned down the knights --Brantley Smith It appears that the romances did greatly affect many rulers and knights, sometimes with tragic results. I am struck by the number of times that a noble would strive to aspire to the high ideals in order to achieve an earthly purpose. This places the ideals in the realm of incantation or magic. "If I look this way and say these words, then I can open the coffers of success." Holy scripture tells us that living a life of virtue does not neccessarily produce a life of abundence on this plane. The first shall be last and any who would wish to gain their life must lose it first. --Brett Eble aka Sheriff Lord Bretton Daarkhorse, Squire to Sir Thomas de Bohun The reality of any time is less than ideal, no matter how high the society climbs (or thinks it climbs). As we do with similar stories set in today's time, knights likely looked at those idealistic stories and thought something along the lines of "Yes, wouldn't that be great if..." In practice, however things are different. Also, if the knights of the period were truly affected and moved to create the ideal situation, the ideal (and the stories that exemplify it) would have changed to stay above reality and become...well, more ideal. --Jason J. Torrick gave them hope in even the worst of times and when anyone would think that there was no hope. the knights would still have hope and love to help guide them through those times. --kevin shakespeare no -- it may be said that the above statement is true, yet the only thing that makes it look like " a better example of knightly behavior " is the fact that they had someone to love. it really has nothing to do with true knightly behavoir. --Kellee Bell The romances did provide a guide for knights to live by, and peer pressure (no pun intended) from other knights, and especially the expectations the ladies of the court had of knights after hearing these tales, were strong forces in affecting the knights' behavior. --James Andrew Mobley I think that the romances had a major effect on the development of chivalrous conduct in Western Europe, as did the Courts of Love --Hugo Davenport trying to uphold an ideal,in my opinion, rarely worsens bad situations. --Joseph C. Luebbert they don't -- UPLIFTING, TO STRIVE FOR.. --MRS. BRENDA LYLES I believe the romances were created to speak of the ideals and Knights, Esquires etc... used these ideals to strive for. --Richard Allison aka Laird Seanne Alansyn I believe that it affected them very little. If a man was right, good, and just then he would see himself as he is in the stories and if the man was wicked then he probably continued to be so regardless of the ideals exhibited in the stories. --Steve Clements aka Havelok MacClellan A few, for sure. My childhood readings of Prince Valiant still have an effect. When a woman reacts with delight that I have opened a door for her, I sometimes comment that "Chivalry is not dead - just a little green around the edges." And just yesterday I did a true chivalric dead: on the slopped sidewalk outside a mall a young girl was struggling to hold back a wheelchair containing an aged woman. Passers-by were ignoring them. If the girl had lost it, the chair would certainly have slipped off a high curb, perhaps flipping over or rolling into traffic. I gently took the chair from her and escorted them into the maill, where they were to be met by people who I assume were the lady's children and little girl's parents. When I was sure they were safe I quickly turned and left without waiting for a "thank you" or in anyway trying to involve myself in further in their lives. --D. E. Williams They were expected to have a certain level of gentlemanly conduct and loyalty to their King. That is not to say that all knights did this at all. --Mateo Steven Clarence Hanna ROMANCES COULD HAVE TAKEN THE KNIGHTS MIND OFF THE REALITY OF THE TIME AND CAUSE HIM TO LOSE --PAUL D. HOWARD I believe that the chansons, lays, and other forms of poetic verse that outlined an idealized version of knightly conduct had a very great effect upon the knights who listened to them. From the time that they were old enough to comprehend the songs, the noble-born men of yore were indoctrinated into the ideal forms of knightly conduct and behavior that the minstrels sang of. Indeed, in the accounts of Sire de Joinville, Seneschal of Champagne, we read of occurrences that could have been lifted directly from the Chanson de Roland. In his accounts of the ill-fated Crusade of Louis IX, Joinville tells us of an battle in which a large force of Saracens had surrounded Joinville and a small party of knights and serjeants. Sorely pressed by the Saracen, and with many of his party sorely wounded, Joinville saw little hope indeed. At this point, one of his knights spied the party of Count Anjou not far off in the field, but would not seek their assistance until he had asked his leader if seeking help would be consistent with his honour! Joinville relates that the knight was a most ghastly figure; he had not worn a helm, and had received a cut to the face which had almost completely severed his nose. The knight, Sire Everard by name, spoke to Joinville, saying; “Sire, if you believe that neither I nor my heirs will incur reproach thereby, I will go and seek help from the count of Anjou who I see yonder in the field.” Joinville replied: “My lord Everard, meseems you would earn great honour if you went to save our lives; your life, too, is in great danger.” Joinville spoke truly, for soon after rallying the forces of Count Anjou to their aid, Sire Everard died of his wound. By this, and many other examples in medieval literature, we see that the stories of their time greatly affected the knights of yore. Indeed, the accounts of the Muslim potentates that opposed the Crusaders during the Holy Wars noted that their troops were very reluctant to close with the Crusaders, since the European knights were feared for their blatant disregard for their own safety in battle, and willingness to attack forces much larger in number, fighting with a fanatical frenzy not seen before by the Muslim troops that opposed them. --Jean-Philippe Medina Senart I believe that made the knights mad --Angelina Napper "yes --Michael Ray Rawlins Jr. aka nonmember I think that knights in the beginnign was realy "gentlemen". Helped the poor and and fighted for the weak. Knights wanted fame and wanted to be liked by the public - therefor trying to do good deeds and help damsdels in distress :-) Unfortenatly knights thought less of this as time went by - got less affectet mye romantic ideals and startet thinking more of themselves. And , unfortenatly, som knights where brutal beasts! --Steven Stieng aka (not SCA) Sir William von Schlagenfeldt Where is the sun --Yolanda Guinse Literature and oral tradition has always reflected the highs and lows of a society, Whereas cronicles of the average joe tend to be exceedingly dull. I believe the Knight of the middle ages would be affected even more than we would today. He did after all have an image to uphold. --David Fowler aka Hans der Vogeljager It minimizes the truth about the risks, behaviors and personality behind the knights. Granted, we would probably not attend our latest Hollyweird releases if it was not for the lure of the romance to Camelot. --Stephen E. Foxall No comment. Not informed enough to have a decision for or against. --Travis J Harvey aka Almeric Wulfgang von Ristau If they were true, then the knights were NOT perfect as each claimed. They became flawed individuals whose judgment was impaired because they didn't keep their minds the mission: to protect and serve the king, to protect christianity, to defend the weak.... --Eduardo Francisco Cidade, Sr. aka Sir Eduardo Francisco of the House of Cidade the reality of the time was less than ideal. it was at best barbaric at times. the romance of the times gave te something to strive for. --karen butta I believe that the medieval romances didnt make it better but helped to improve the reputation of the knights and to make them what they truely were Warriors and Good men --Ray Jones I would hope that the tales served as cautionary tales and provided a source of inspiration. However, I think the reality is that they took inspiration from whatever moved them. Stories, art, whatever. --Robert Vozniak aka Gundric Fawkes I dont believe they were much affected at all. for them it was also a fact that life went on. I think that they, as we do today, tried to be extremely chivalrous to ladies during tournaments and such, but otherwise they lived quite a normal life. --Hakan Stendahl aka Marcus lawless O´Toole When is the reality of the time really ideal? --Glenn Casper I beleive it would inspire the knights to reach for higher goals. As you well know the Knights were a very competive bunch and the thought of one of their peers being more Chivalrous would demand that they excel and be more Chivalrous in turn. --Chris Williams aka Lord Luetfried Ansbach of Haus Blutwache I think that the knights themselves were not all that affected by the stories at all. There may have been some knights that strove for such conduct, but the knighthood was first and foremost, a military order, not a social order. However as continues, knigthood has become a social order. --Mark Wallevand aka William de'Bohun, AoA I certainly believe that the medieval romances had an effect on the conduct of the majority of knights. Modern sportsmen who become household names have (in the past, at least) strove to live up to their fame by taking part in community projects, charities, etc.. But just as in modern times, I also believe that there were those knights who put on 'airs' when in the spotlight and then went on with their usual skullduggery when they thought no one was watching. --Marc Morgan aka Squire Wayland of Marinus Who has not wished that their current status was better than it was at the time. We as people now make the effort to better ourselves. We cannot fault the people of the past for trying to believe themselves to be better people or at least on the journey to become better. --Glenn Andersen aka Olav Grimmson For some it might well have provided an ideal to wich they would aspire. For others perhaps merely an entertainment such as a modern day film or book. --Wulfrick Blackwell Stories of the ideal knights helped to form chivalric orders like the Order of the Garter (Knights of St. George). these orders were an attempt to re-create in part the spirit of much romantisized tales of groups like the Knights of the Round Table --Brad Hartsock The knights themselves were affected by these stories greatly. Where else were their heros to come from. To be shown how a man and knight should conduct himself in all aspects of his life were very important. --Kris Holsen aka Lachlann MacNiall Well, I believe that the romances are both fact and fiction, mayhap they were written as a means of escapism for times that were very harsh for the authors, such as our modern romance novels...I am sure that some knights were chivalrous, and yet there also were the blackhearted ones who never cared what they did as long as they gained power and personal wealth. King Arthur did exist sometime ago, I do believe and if there were bad knights about I think that would injure my honor, the stories were entertainment for people and if I knew of someone who was creative enough to tell such a story they would be welcome to entertain in my hall. I think the knights would have loved the stories, maybe they were not always true, but they always embellished on their battle skills anyway, so it doesn't matter fact or fiction...I like them... --Lee Ann Schemel aka not registered yet Many medieval romances seem to be satirical of many aspects of knightly conduct. Stressing some virtues far above what normal men find commendable and often these stressed virtues would lead the "hero" into a situation facing many dangers. To me it would seem that these stories, if they had any effect on the knights, would simply point out the dangers of excess, even virtueous excess. --Scott Smithers aka Sir Daemon Broussard Without being a scholar, but merely an enthusiast, in the field I would hesitate to give any sort of de facto answer, however if we can accept the word of Froissart at all i would say that the chivalric ideal was important at least as a yard stick against which to measure oneself if not as a universally enforced coda. To talk of chivalry as a code often implies looking at it after it had run its natural course in society as well, for it seems likely that while it was still, if ever, a 'living force' in medieval society it was not so much a well-defined code as a set of somewhat more hazy ideals enforced by the individual, not any outside force. --Terry Lago The stories may have given Knights something to strive to achieve. --Jessica Purdue aka Allesandra Giovanna D'Miglioratti How do idealized detective stories affect real detectives today? I don't think I know the answer to either question. --Pauline J. Alama I realy dont know -- I realy dont know -- The knights of the time greatly enjoyed hearing the songs of their great deeds and the stories of their enemies failures. It provided them with a sense of unity, strength, and a really good chuckle. --Blaethyn Hawthorn aka Sir Lancealot Like the rest of us, they took what pleased from them and cast away the rest. How many of us have lionized Richard, yet ignored his monstrousities on the inocent peoples of Jurusalem. Chained arm to arm around the city and eviserated for the riches in ther bellies. --Ryen C. Schimerman aka Zangi I believe those knights carried themselves as best they could to an extent. The reality of the time cant be too far off from what we know now, I think this because DeGrassi once wrote: "Considering and seeing by experience that all human beings, noble and non noble, naturally fly from death and desire to live long in this mortal world; and afterwards to live forever in the Kingdom of Paradise. To achieve and obtain the natural desires above-said, it seems to me that every human and rational creature must keep himself in good estate, and arm himself first with good spiritual armor, that is to say with the beatific virtues to defend himself and to resist all vices and diabolic temptations; preserving and guarding the soul from eternal death." He was a Renaissance Axe Weider and Writer. --Kenneth Dudley aka Rune They must have thought they were the enforcers of these ideals. --Lori Orr it gives them more incentive to present a more honorable presence while in the presence of others and when alone --Chris Robins